BURSTThe first V18. The first 5.15a trad climb. A potential 5.16 around the corner.
The last few months have been a particularly exciting time for pushing the limits of difficulty in climbing, with two new grades proposed and potential 5.16 projects in the works.
In November, Elias Iagnemma announced his first ascent of Exodia, proposing that it goes at V18/9A+. He logged more than 200 sessions on this project, located near Rifugio di Barbara in Italy.
In July, Connor Herson sent Drifter’s Escape on the Stawamus Chief in Squamish, giving the world its first proposed 5.15a/9a+ trad line. It was the culmination of two seasons of work.
Earlier this year, Seb Bouin posted about Insouciance, a potential 5.16a/9c+ line that he has eyes on.
On top of that, Chris Sharma told The Struggle Climbing Show about a mega-project that could go as high as 5.16.
With all this in mind, it does raise some questions.
How does someone know they’ve climbed a grade that’s never been climbed before? How do you know whether a new level of difficulty for yourself is a new level of universal difficulty in the sport?
To get perspective on this, Gripped had a lengthy conversation with Chris Sharma, who is no stranger to sending new grades that stand the test of time.
The 44-year-old’s first ascents of Biographie/Realization 5.15a/9a+ and Jumbo Love 5.15b/9b have been confirmed and are established benchmarks in sport climbing. The same goes for his first ascent of Es Pontàs, the world’s first 5.15a/9a+ deep water solo.
The conversation took place in late February, after Sharma had recently competed in the USAC 2026 YETI Climbing National Championships. He placed 24th in men’s lead.
Gripped also touched briefly on his competition climbing ambitions, and whether he had plans for the LA 2028 Olympics.
The following interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Gripped: You’ve broken a new grade for climbing multiple times. First was Biographie/Realization. My understanding is you declined to grade it at first. What about that climb/experience made you hesitate to call it 15a?
Sharma: Yeah, I was coming back into climbing after a period of time where I had been forced by an injury to kind of step away from climbing. I had kind of rediscovered this deeper connection with climbing, and I spent a lot of time just going off climbing by myself, bouldering, having this really pure experience, just almost kind of spiritual in form, more in line with that style of experience versus a pure sport experience.
And I was really influenced by that.
We’re intrigued by wanting to progress. And a very tangible way of gauging progression is through numbers, right?
But time and time again, you see it over and over. People getting overly obsessed about grades, oftentimes, prioritizing that over the quality or the beauty of the experience.
I was very intrigued by this new experience that I was having, in a way, finding freedom from all of that and just having this deeper personal exploration connection with climbing.
Exploring the depths of my potential without anything attached, any numbers attached to it.
[I had been on a trip to Squamish where we filmed Rampage.]
I didn’t grade anything on that entire trip, or during that entire two or three-year period.
It was a little bit of a statement as well, to kind of just flip things on, on their head a little bit. It just kind of threw everybody off a lot, because everyone’s so accustomed to thinking about things in this quantitative way, of evaluating these performances and these rock climbs. And I just wanted to bring awareness to climbing. [Grades] are a part of it, but climbing can be this bigger, all-inclusive experience.
Climbing can be like meditation, or like yoga. I think it can also be very similar to, like, a martial art. It’s this constant discipline, you know, personal mastery where you go back over and over and over again.
I’m not from that world, but it’s not like you’re doing it because you want to get the new belt. You’re fully engaged in this process of personal mastery.
As you progress through those barriers, you naturally just kind of walk through them, right?
And anyways, I was kind of making a statement, in that sense, with not grading it.
Gripped: Biographie/Realization eventually did get graded 15a. Was that you eventually coming back and suggesting it, or was that a consensus that was realized after repeats?
Sharma: I feel like it was kind of created by the media.
It’s a little interesting. Yeah, I think it was just kind of assumed. I mean, other people had tried it, but it was just this climb that represented the next level.
And that’s interesting to see as things have settled and consolidated. I think Biographie is probably one of the hardest 5.15a’s out there. Like, you know, there’s a lot of 5.15’s these days that I think are probably a lot easier than that, and so it’s interesting to kind of ponder.
People maybe saw how much time I put into it. Other people had tried it as well. The route already had this reputation about being this next level.
I think it’s really exciting to think about, especially in the Yosemite Decimal System ratings. The thought of a 5.16. The 5.15 was very emblematic, right? It’s a whole new number.
I think it’s interesting to compare that to the French grading system.
In the Yosemite Decimal system, 5.13a is a new number.
In the French grades, the equivalent is 8a, which corresponds to 5.13b, right?
Gripped: Right. It’s not like this brand new, clean-cut number.
Sharma: What’s a French 10a? It’s 16b in YDS. These are just interesting thoughts.
Gripped: When you sent Jumbo Love and gave the world its first 15b, from what I can tell, it didn’t sound like you had the same hesitation in giving it a grade. Is that true? If so, what was your thinking in that matter?
Sharma: I was already living in Luna, Spain. And I came back from this long journey of doing different things. For many years, I only bouldered. Then I got into deep water soloing, and that coalesced with climbing Es Pontàs, which is interesting, actually. I didn’t grade that either, but now that’s kind of settled at 15a as well, which is pretty cool.
But I had come to Catalonia, inspired by Dani Andrada, and this potential for coming back into sport climbing. Where do we go from here? How can we step this up a notch? And when I went to Clark Mountain [in California] and started trying Jumbo Love, it was clear to me that that was kind of what I was looking for.
And so in that sense, I was specifically looking for that next step in difficulty, right?
And I had, coming from Spain, more perspective.
I was, you know, more in it, as far as, like, the game of trying to climb the hardest route.
I mean, I think it’s interesting when you do a first ascent, in general, it’s really hard to get it right. And oftentimes, you know, especially when you’re trying something in your own bubble, by yourself.
You know, it’s very common for people to come later on and find new tricks that make the route easier. It happens all the time.
It’s harder to do a first ascent. It’s something that’s never been done before.
You also need the vision to will this thing into existence.
Whereas once it’s been done, you’re like, ‘Oh, I know it’s been done.’
It’s way more attainable, because it’s actually something that’s been climbed. It’s very abstract, you know? It’s not even an actual thing yet, right? Sometimes it can be hard to focus on it, because it’s this ambiguous goal.
But, anyways, with first ascents, it can be hard to know exactly the grade. It’s a normal process. You know, people come and sometimes things will get upgraded. Sometimes they get downgraded. And I think that’s interesting.
Gripped: I’ve seen some climbers use metrics like the number of attempts on a route as a way to justify that they’ve broken a new grade. But…how do you know when a climb is difficult specifically for you because of its style and morpho requirements, versus it being a new benchmark of universal difficulty in the sport?
Sharma: I mean, I think it’s hard to know, especially as you go down the rabbit hole. And sometimes, I felt on many occasions, on many routes that I could have probably done them quicker. But the mental challenge that goes along with it drew the whole process out a whole lot longer.
And, of course, especially, like I said, there’s this level of doubt and uncertainty around it all which can add to that feeling of difficulty that, of course, when someone else comes, they’re not going to have that same perspective.
I think it’s hard to know, to be honest.
I think that’s ultimately why it’s fun to think about that stuff. But if that’s really your guiding goal, it’s not going to lead you to success. You have to just immerse yourself in the process, in the route, as I was saying.
That metaphor with the martial artist; you’re not just dwelling on getting your new belt.
It’s like you need to fully just embody that experience. And the rest kind of works itself out, right?
I think we get, sometimes, a clear taste near the beginning of the process. We’ve spent enough time on it where we understand the difficulty and the amount of endurance and fitness that it requires.
But once you start going deeper and deeper, it can be really challenging, because things can get really warped. You know you start trying this thing, and you don’t know why you’re falling, and maybe you’re in the best shape of your life.
You fall in this one spot, and it might be really hard, it might not be that hard, and you get kind of confused. And so I think that’s why it’s so cool when routes get repeated.
Because we have these amazing personal experiences on these climbs. But then when you can kind of get an experience with someone else that’s like, this interaction that you can talk about, then it’s validating. You’re like, ‘Okay, well, really, this actually is a hard move.’
Like, ‘Wow, I wasn’t just like in some weird mental block or whatever.’ And I mean to me, personally, it’s incredibly validating when another top-level climber loves a climb that I put up enough to dedicate their life to sending that route where they’re going to put everything on hold and just focus on that.
I mean, it’s like a huge honor that other people like it. For myself, I was like, I think this is really cool. But when someone else comes along and also sees that same value, like, ‘Okay, that’s cool.’ Like, it actually is, right? And so I think it’s an important part of the experience. And I love the experience of doing these things on my own, in the middle of nature.
But, you know, having that interaction with other climbers. It really kind of brings it into the context of a community.
And I think it suddenly becomes this contribution to our climbing world. And so I think it’s incredibly important. It’s interesting. Some routes that I’ve done, particularly Golpe de Estado, [which is currently rated 15b] I feel down the road, may be considered the first 15c. We’ll see.
But Adam Ondra repeated it in 2010, and no one even tries it anymore, and it’s a really good route too. There’s a lot of routes like that out there from other climbers as well.
It’s a little bit unfortunate in a sense, because I think you really do need that interaction from other climbers attempting those routes.
For me, for example, with Es Pontàs, like, all of these young, talented climbers have come in the last several years and repeated that route, and it really just consolidates the importance of that climb.
I think not all routes are going to be like that, because some routes are really hard, but maybe not that fun, and some routes are the full package, you know, like the king lines that are just, you know, barely possible, but then also just amazing with super cool movement.
And that’s, that’s ultimately where I was trying to emphasize with Biographie. Let’s not get too caught up in this number thing. Look how amazing and beautiful this climb is. Like, that’s what it’s all about, right? I think it’s an interesting evolution.
It’s cool to play a role in it. It’s cool to see all of these guys. To see what Sean Bailey just did, to see Seb, what he’s been doing over the years, and all of these amazing climbers.
I think it is interesting. It’s an exciting time for climbing, for sure.
Gripped: You’ve already touched on this, about having other people try a route to get a grade consensus. But are there any other personal criteria or check boxes in your mind that you try to go through when you potentially are breaking a grade or doing something that hasn’t been done before? What things tell you this is the next level?
Sharma: I think I just got introduced a year or two ago to the Darth grader app, and it’s kind of interesting.
I mean, I think it’s really curious, because, as I was mentioning, it’s really easy to get lost in your own world of you know, what am I actually trying? Why am I falling? How hard is this?
I think specifically I could say that regarding sport climbs, because it’s a lot easier to break down the sections of the route into boulder problems.
And so that was a really interesting kind of objective thing that is surprisingly accurate.
I was pretty impressed by that.
Then there’s Biographie, where no one really knew. [The grade was like a] placeholder, in the sense that it was this next-level thing and they’re just like, ‘Oh, it’s 5.15.’ It’s very easy to just be like, ‘Yeah, this is probably the next step.’
But who knows? There are routes out there I’m trying and that other people are trying. Maybe they’re more than the next step, right? You know, as the grades kind of consolidate, you find where the 9a+ stops and the 9b starts. It doesn’t really seem like an exact science. And, of course, like you said, you know, body type and personal strengths and everything plays so much into all of that.
Which, you know, is going back to the beginning of what I was saying, and I think it is really fun to have this game that we’re playing.
But also it’s important to remember that climbing is kind of a unique experience for everybody. Even if they’re on the same route, there’s no two experiences that are the same. You know, everyone has a different body type for one.
The deeper you go really trying to analyze, and solidify this number, ultimately I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s real.
You know, everyone’s body is different, and you can’t compare me climbing on one route being 50 pounds heavier than someone that’s way shorter and super light. It’s a completely different experience.
I think it’s good to remember that, though, when we get overly obsessed about it. This is kind of just for fun to guide our experience and kind of motivate us, but not take it too seriously.
You know, there’s some routes where someone might find a different foothold or a different hand sequence or something in one spot. But, I mean, I’ve seen certain other routes, like my route, First Round, First Minute. It’s a short route, but Jorge Díaz-Rullo climbed over a third of it completely different with knee bars and stuff. And so, it’s like a completely different route.
It’s just food for thought. Not to, like, invalidate or anything. Just going back to the point that climbing is really a personal experience.
And sounds pretty cheesy to say this, but we all can find our own 9b+ or whatever, because that’s just a placeholder for the hardest thing that we can imagine, right?
But someday when people are climbing 5.17 or whatever, that’s just gonna be another number. So, like, we should never take ourselves too seriously in that respect, as far as thinking we’re better than someone else, because we’re all kind of on our own path, trying to be our best version of ourselves.
And I think that’s just an important thing to remember, because grades are kind of this tricky thing. It’s a really interesting part of our sport, but it can also bring out the dark side in all of us too.
Gripped: Can you give us an example of a particular moment in one of your climbs (Realization, Jumbo Love, or anything else) when you thought to yourself, ‘This is definitely a new benchmark grade in the sport.’
Sharma: I had the privilege to come into this sport when there was a lot of room for improvement, for taking climbing to the next level. It happened to me a lot of times, from Biographie, to Jumbo Love, to Es Pontàs.
Putting up routes like Perfecto Mundo [5.15c/9b+] and La Dura Dura [5.15c/9b+], where I could see that it was possible, but I’d never seen anything that difficult before. For me, having the background in both sport climbing and bouldering really kind of helped me visualize what those next levels could be.
Because no one had really done it in that way before. People had bouldered and sport climbed, but hadn’t blended those two styles together.
Gripped: If you were to give advice to climbers setting new grades in the sport nowadays, what would it be?
Sharma: It feels so meaningful to have a project. It’s like a purpose. But with these high-end accomplishments, you’re right on edge.
You have to step out of the norm of what people normally do to achieve these things. So it’s a little bit crazy, you know? There’s a side of it that’s a good crazy.
But there’s a side of it too where we become so obsessed.
Remember to enjoy the moment. Because sometimes we can get frustrated and just get so obsessed about wanting to achieve that next goal where we stop having fun and stop appreciating, and maybe that’s natural when you get pushed to that point. You’re going to deal with frustration and stuff like that.
But you don’t wanna go through your life just chasing the next thing and never finding contentment, And so find that balance between enjoyment while you’re following your dream to climb this next-level thing. Find that balance between being outside of the box on the edge of somewhat being a little bit insane to go off the deep end and believe that this is possible but at the same time being able to appreciate. And that’s not always easy.
Gripped: You just competed in the USA Nationals. How did it feel to get into the competition circuit? Do you have any Olympic ambitions for LA 2028?
Sharma: It was cool to be out there, I felt nervous, to be honest.
I felt like I needed more experience being in that world, where you have to turn it on in that one moment. Basically, I felt really good.
I felt like I was in great shape, but, at same time, it’s also a really interesting experience to feel those butterflies.
I mean just to make that comparison again: there is this side of climbing that’s all fun and beauty and personal experience, but then there’s this other side where there are grades.
And I think it’s a natural human characteristic. Being competitive is a natural thing. It’s good to embrace that and let it be something that motivates you and inspires you to push harder and become better, versus it making you want to run and hide.
Even though I felt a little bit intimidated, it was also really good to choose to not let that other side get the best of me. It’s the same when someone’s scared to fall on lead. They’ll never be able to climb their best.
But once they’re able to let go of that fear of falling, then they can really go for it. It’s the same thing with failure in any of those areas. So if you can be comfortable with that, it frees you up.
It’s a really cool space to play in.
Other than that, I’m just taking things one thing at a time.
To be honest, it’s hard for me to imagine putting rock climbing on the side. I just love rock climbing. I have too many amazing projects to shelve that. We’ll see about anything beyond just going doing a couple of competitions for fun. But I’m enjoying it. It was cool to be there and the feeling that you could still learn new things. But you got to put yourself out there and you got to try hard.
The same thing applies in redpoint climbing or rock climbing. A lot of people have never projected something for very long. They’re in their comfort zone of trying, doing something they can do in several tries, and putting yourself in a situation where you might fail at something, where you might spend several years trying something and you might walk away empty-handed; it’s a vulnerable place to be.
But if you can embrace that, it brings you further along the journey for sure.
Watch: Chris Sharma sends Realization/Biographie, the first 5.15a/9a+
The post Interview: Chris Sharma on 5.16 and how do you know when you’ve climbed a new grade? appeared first on Gripped Magazine.